Ayaan Hirsi Ali Affirms Her Christian Faith in a Debate with Richard Dawkins
Dawkins pulls out all the usual atheist talking points but to no avail
The British publication, Unherd, sponsored a debate between well-known atheist Richard Dawkins and recent convert to Christianity, Ayaan Hirsi Ali. I was quite surprised that Ali agreed to this debate. She is a brand-new Christian. She announced her conversion last November in the pages of Unherd and I produced a video about it which I will link below. So she has little experience in a debate of this kind. Dawkins has been involved in this kind of debate for decades, has written numerous books on the topic, hundreds of articles and interviews. I thought the matchup unfair and one-sided. Like sending a middle school girl into the ring with the heavyweight champ.
But the debate went much differently from what one would expect.
Ayaan was asked to open the debate by describing how and why she had become a Christian. “I didn’t, like many people who come to faith, see big banging lights. And I didn’t have any of those spectacular experiences that some people share…. I had a personal crisis. I lived for about a decade with intense depression and anxiety and self-loathing. I hit rock bottom; I went to a place where I actually didn’t want to live anymore but wasn’t brave enough to take my own life…. I had over a long period of time seen a psychiatrist, other doctors. I was trying to understand my condition and trying to treat it with the help of pure evidence-based science. And…last year I saw one therapist who said, perhaps it’s something else that you have. And she described it as spiritual bankruptcy.”
So by her own admission she had hit the bottom. Then, “having reached a place where I had absolutely nothing to lose, I prayed and I prayed desperately. And for me, that was a turning point. And what happened after that is a miracle in its own right. I feel connected to something higher and greater than myself;… my zest for life is back. And that experience has filled me with humility...”
When it was Dawkins’ turn to speak he seemed a bit flummoxed. He admitted Ayaan’s was a moving personal story but then he said, correctly in my view, that to be a Christian you have to believe certain things—the incarnation, the resurrection, the virgin birth, etc.
At this point Ali acknowledges her close personal relationship with Dawkins and is obviously grateful for him, viewing him as a mentor. But she has departed from the Dawkins worldview. She says the starting point is to admit there is something out there, rather than nothing. She said people of faith are not stupid—they are clever and wise.
For Dawkins this is a tough moment. He has to admit, “I’ve called you a political Christian, but from what you’ve just said, it sounds like you are more than just a political Christian. It sounds as though you actually believe it.”
Dawkins then launches several more broadsides, attacking the idea of original sin, the virgin birth, and Jesus’ atoning death on the cross.
Ayaan’s response is profound: “Christianity is actually obsessed with love. That is in the figure of the teaching of Christ. As I see it, and again, I’m a brand-new Christian, but what I’m finding out is that this is the opposite of growing up as a Muslim and the message of Islam. The message of Christianity I get is that it’s a message of love. It’s a message of redemption. And it’s a story of renewal and rebirth.”
Then Dawkins launches another broadside: “You surely do not believe in the resurrection?”
Ali responds: “I choose to believe that Jesus rose from the dead. That is a matter of choice. It’s a matter going back to: Is there something or is there nothing? [Referring to Dawkins she says] I think you start with: there is nothing. And yes, for years I agreed with you that there is nothing. But if you come round to the idea that there might be something much more powerful than we are, something that caused everything else, then something like Jesus rising out of the dead and these other miracles, Jesus being born out of a virgin, for that higher power is not a big deal.”
After all this Dawkins sort of throws up his hands and says, “I came here prepared to persuade you Ayaan that you’re not a Christian. But I think you are a Christian.”
I was astonished that Ayaan Hirsi Ali withstood every shot Dawkins fired at her. But I think the Holy Spirit was with her. The answers she gave were remarkable. And it was left to Dawkins to announce that she really was a Christian.
The rest of the debate is worth watching as they talk about the cultural impact of religion. I will link the debate and a transcript below. But for me the heart of the issue is whether or not Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s faith is real. It sure seems like it to me.
Others have weighed in on the debate. Alex O’Connor is a European atheist who writes for Unherd. I thought his comment was interesting: “Ayaan does seem genuinely transformed by her new faith: she looks happy, speaks humbly, and seems genuinely uninterested in point-scoring or winning any arguments. It troubles me not at all to admit that I found myself applauding her more than Richard Dawkins.”
And this from Bethel McGrew in World Magazine: “This was the stuff of Alcoholics Anonymous, of earnest…testimonies about getting on your knees and discovering a “higher power,” or in Hirsi Ali’s own words, “the God who turned me around.” Dawkins surely must be wondering what a brilliant, poised, high-status woman like her is doing with a conversion story like that. There’s a touch of nervousness in his voice as he admits, “It sounds like you actually believe it.”
Some might hope for a more powerful knockout blow to an annoying atheist like Dawkins but again, I agree with Bethel McGrew: “There is something particularly refreshing about the hopeful joy of a new Christian that simply can’t be captured in the well-worn arguments of a seasoned apologist. A changed life is its own apologetic, its own witness to a watching world.” The changed life is still the most powerful defense of Christianity’s truth.
Christianity has been built through the ages by changed lives. You might remember Saul of Tarsus being knocked to the ground when he saw Jesus Christ on his way to Damascus. Or Augustine in the garden when he heard a young girl saying “take and read” and then how a verse in Romans changed the course of his life and the history of civilization. Or when Martin Luther read a verse in Romans 1 that opened his eyes to the great truth of salvation by faith alone. The list goes on and on. That’s how Jesus Christ transforms the world. By transforming the individual. Ayaan is just the latest of many millions.
I pray you are in that group. A person transformed by Jesus Christ. You can be by simply placing your life in his hands right now.
May the life-transforming power of Jesus Christ be yours today.
More: Ayaan Hirsi Ali, “Why I am no longer an atheist”; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=039-0HjWzso
Ayaan Hirsi Ali announces her conversion to Christianity: https://unherd.com/2023/11/why-i-am-now-a-christian/
Dawkins and Ayaan Hirsi Ali:
One atheist impressed with Ali’s conversion: https://unherd.com/2024/06/the-trouble-with-political-christianity/?tl_inbound=1&tl_groups[0]=18743&tl_period_type=3&utm_source=UnHerd+Today&utm_campaign=478e4413e6-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2024_06_19_09_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_79fd0df946-478e4413e6-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D
Bethel McGrew weighs in: https://wng.org/opinions/one-womans-simple-moving-testimony-1718479531?mkt_tok=NzEwLVFSUi0yMDkAAAGTxbP_0KOHodtTYkwusxnzgg08_lZGTEcqzL90m-aSe7MmER3ai80hoS0AZlHSVqfaVZRDfPPIZF22rjmGaBtMbZPVAHXdoPlzJ3d1EwRr-Wme#comment-2480593
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